Amanda Palmer on Creativity, Pain, and Art | The Tim Ferriss Show

[Music] Amanda welcome back to the show I am so happy to be back on the show it has been almost four years since we last spoke and there’s so much that we can talk about the interview that we last did seems simultaneously it was yesterday and also seems like a thousand years ago like life at like life and we’ve we’ve been chatting off line before recording and I thought we’d start somewhere light which is with books and lasts heavy books literally heavy sometimes thematically less so and there was a book that you had mentioned also very kindly and tools of Titans so thank you I suppose it was removed from the audio but nonetheless dropping ashes on the Buddha which is a book by an author whose name I still don’t know how to pronounce soundless yongsan Seuss on Korean Zen monk that you have gifted to many many many many people and could you give us just a very brief explanation of why that is and then any new books and I suspect I know what might come up that have had a large impact on you your thinking or anything else sure so I I read dropping ashes in the Buddha when I was 24 I think my mentor Anthony gave me his copy and he gave me a lot of books and it was it was one of those coincidences where who knows there was probably a pile of books I was going on a trip to Australia as a street performer this is before I was a musician professionally at least and um I remember being in Australia it was a very difficult trip I wasn’t making much money and that trip actually wound up being really catalyzing in a lot of ways that I wouldn’t fully realize until later and I remember lying on the the beach this shitty beach in outside Adelaide where I was at the Fringe and reading this book and just looking around and going oh wait like I I get it does did these people get it like just having you know there’s their few moments in your life where like things actually really just seismically change and all of a sudden you’re a different person and it wasn’t like I got hit with a ton of bricks because I read one sentence but the book did do a kind of a number on me and then I was actually really fortunate I’ve actually I don’t know if I’ve ever told this story I got to actually grab all the lessons from this book which basically just the lessons of Zen Buddhism non-attachment being able to just sit with what is the inability you know the the ability to not freak out and to just watch it watch Life pass and I got arrested right as I was finishing the book for shoplifting when I wasn’t really shoplifting but sort of I was so here’s the weird story the weird story is I was tree performing a living statue character I talked about it in my TED talk called the eight-foot pride where I’m like you know dressed all in white white gloves white facepaint white dress black wig and I showed up in Australia and I had forgotten one of the tools of my trade which was a wig cap to put on to gather all my hair up so I could put this black wig over it and I was like oh fuck I don’t have a wig cap it’s a weird thing to buy they don’t sell them in your average store usually in Boston where I lived I would go to this bizarre Hair Salons store and I was like oh where am I gonna get something like this I went to Woolworths I bought a ton of other stuff you know whatever 60 $100 worth of other items and then I noticed there was an lay of Stalkings of nylons that was like half torn apart and it kind of had this thing that I needed just hanging off it so I took it and I left the store and the cops came and they arrested me and there I was arrested in Australia I was 23 24 like a five cent piece of material yeah and it was weird because like I hadn’t stolen an item for sale I had just kind of taken this thing that looks like no one was using it right what I did was definitely wrong it’s not the sort of thing that is it more responsible 42 year old woman I would do I’m not that stupid anymore and you know I had my sort of indignant feeling but I also knew I wasn’t an idiot I was like you did something wrong that was stupid Amanda oh my god no here you are being interrogated by the police and everything that I had just read in this book by the Zen Buddhist monk flooded into me and I felt like in that moment if I’ve ever had a cataclysmic human change in that moment I found myself acting like a different human being than the human being I had been up to that point because I think the human being I had been up to that point would have been defensive and explanatory and kind of freaking out and like trying to convince the and I just like I remember just sitting back and and going like what would some song in the Zen monk do and I just remember looking at the cop and saying I am so sorry that you have to go through this what I did was incredibly stupid I hope that you can understand that I didn’t feel that I was stealing because I just I had all these other things I was purchasing and if you need to put me in jail you should but I’m very sorry and I’m not just saying I’m sorry to put me in jail I’m just saying I’m sorry that I have inconvenienced you this way and the cops were like okay you can go and I was like I’m a Jedi Master walked out of there and was like but I mean we laugh about that but the that is you know Star Wars is really hits people deep for a reason the the Jedi lessons the lessons of Yoda are the lessons of Zen Buddhism non-attachment you know non attachment to the outcome sitting with what is knowing that the power is not coming from some outside authentication and you know and all of these things the lessons of Zen and the book and Anthony my mentor in life they also flicked me along that path hmm that’s a good an amazing story yeah thanks for letting me tell it haha thanks for starting kicking off the conversation with it so that is one book yeah that’s had a big impact in the last four years there any others that come to mind that perhaps you’ve gifted to other people or not well there is a there’s a book I’m absolutely obsessed with right now so it’s hard to think of any other books because I’m having a passionate affair with this one it’s called why we sleep and it’s by Matthew Walker I had never heard of him I saw the book in a bookstore and just picked it up because I thought that looks interesting and it feels again like this seismic you know life altering the information that’s coming at me in this book is literally physically technically changing my life on a day-to-day basis and I really want you to read it I will I will and you showed me the book it’s it’s just unbelievable and the you know I’m not a person who reads constantly about self-improvement I mean I’m interested in it I I you know I I read a lot of nonfiction but this this book is just a collection of sleep studies basically and what this this researcher has taken away as a sleep scientist from whatever you know 2530 years of doing sleep studies and also you know what we’ve learned about other mammals how they sleep why we sleep what happens when we are asleep and I mean I I find myself I’ve now bought a dozen copies of this book because I want everyone I love and I care about to know that this information is available and I mean it feels a lot like waking no pun intended like it feels a little bit like waking up from a bad dream where it occurred to me I was I was lying in bed this morning and I was actually thinking about some stuff that was quite dark and I was like human beings have been a lot I’ve been alive as a species doing this thing for so long it’s astounding to me that that we on planet earth right now are so fucked up that we haven’t just been on this ever-increasing curve of more knowledge you know more understanding more compassion like on we haven’t been on some linear march of progress as mammals and it it just astounds me that I learn this simplest things and look back at the entirety the entirety of my life and I’m like no one told me about this like human beings have all of this knowledge all of this other knowledge and no one told me about this and I felt this I felt the same way about a lot of reproductive female issues like I live at you know I’m in the 1% of Western civilization and no one taught me about this and people know the studies are out there the knowledge is out there there’s also you know knowledge that’s been handed down from generation to generation to generation like you’re trying to tell me that it really is just stopping now that we’re sharing information that we’re doing it right that we’re actually taking care of each other how did this happen and the sleep book is kind of making me feel like that like you know mammals have been pretty good at this human mammals have been pretty good at sleep and then everything got pretty fucked up and we’re just you know we’re just sort of like it’s like pulling up the rug and looking at the insane creepy crawlies of how we’ve damaged our mental health or emotional health or physical health by doing something as simple as not ever sleeping right it’s insane I’m gonna read it and I should say for people who are wondering or skeptical maybe possibly as I am often I look at the back of the book you might remember this and I saw a name on the back under one of the blurbs Adam Ghazali who’s been on the podcast who is a neuroscientist out of UCSF one of the sharpest and also most skeptical people I know who had a glowing review which tells me that the the the science and the descriptions of the science are highly highly highly credible yeah it’s a very credible book and it’s it is also beautifully readable and and it’s it’s no you know there’s no whoo it’s it’s pure science which for a skeptic I can handle a little bit of whoo sprinkled in my books but mostly I’m have a woo allergy so let’s let’s talk a bit about interviews and this is gonna be a segue well I think this this will be a segue into a lot of fertile ground you said something to me before we began recording which is I’ve done many many different interviews you’ve done hundreds probably thousands of interviews and you recently had one of the most I think the word you used was profound interviews with a German radio host yeah well I mean I just mentioned that because that was the interview that happened this morning I’ve been having profound interview after profound interview for three weeks since I started doing promo on this new record and I mean I’ve been putting out music for a long time and doing a lot of interviews in cycles the way you do when you put a book out you know you’ve got your media cycle you talk about the thing you made you go away you make another thing you talk about it this this record that I just made I didn’t even think about it but going into the media part and the the interview part I mean this is the most personal and most direct record by by a long mile I’ve ever made I talked about the death of my friend my best friend from cancer I talked about abortion I talked about miscarriage I mean it is it is a balls-to-the-wall unapologetically open vulnerable record so you can imagine being the journalist on the other side who gets sent this album and then has to do an interview with me or gets to do an interview hour you know depending on which way you’re looking at it and it has been a fascinating process to be the person on the other side of the phone can I pause you for one second yeah can you repeat what you said to me maybe it was an hour of hour or so ago about your metric Oh I said – I said to him the metric that I am using to measure the success of this record is not in numbers or stars granted to me by granted to me by magazine critics but it is number of human beings crying when they hear when they hear it or see me play it which is way more satisfying way to judge the worth of a record and it’s working so I’ve had I’ve had two kinds of interviews that I’ve done I’ve done interviews with journalists who just keep it very light and superficial you know so tell me about your record what kind of space for you and when you wrote these songs don’t know you know and and a few quite a few of the interviews have been kind of unprecedented in my experience of just doing music interviews with journalists and I found weirdly especially European interviews a German Austrian I think Austrian journalist the other day he was talking to me about the record and he he told me about the miscarriage that he and his wife had gone through and what it felt like and I don’t think he’s gonna include that in his piece but he wanted to tell me and talk to me about it and I did an interview with a German radio station this morning and I was like a radio station like it’s going to be very fluffy and superficial it’s the radio those are never good and on this German journalists sort of just talking to me about vulnerability and the shamelessness of the record and what it feels like to share this kind of material and she told me that she found out she had breast cancer chose to have a double mastectomy and she talked to me about you know in Germany there’s a lot more nudity there’s what they call high culture high corporate Couture you know the idea that we shouldn’t be ashamed to be naked which is great I agree and she talked about being in saunas and going to lakes where you know everyone has their tits out and how she feels when she emerges from the water and people see that she doesn’t have any breasts and she just has these scars and then I expected her to say something different than what she actually said she said I actually think it’s a lot of fun do you and I was like well I don’t know if I would call it fun I’m not sure if she said Schmauss it’s like I’m not sure that that’s really the word but there is definitely something kind of delicious about like baring your neck baring your pain talking about your abortion talking about your miscarriage talking about your grief showing your scars that doesn’t it doesn’t feel narcissistic actually if you do it right and you’re in the right place it actually feels like a generous act because you act as a reminder to the other human beings when you’re getting out of that lake that any shame they may be feeling is unwarranted unnecessary really and and if they’re feeling discomfort and you’re not made uncomfortable by their discomfort you can offer them a gift and being able to do that with music is you know feels like my job right now like the ability to get up there on stage and kind of bare my throat as a kind of a gift I think it’s a huge gift I think that by sharing or showing scars whether they’re physical or emotional you give people permission to do the same even if that is someone who only trades with another person like the journalist you mentioned who finally fell free to divulge what happened with a miscarriage yeah I think there’s tremendous tremendous value and the more you get to know people all people they’re all carrying something everybody you know maybe not right at that moment but there just isn’t anyone out there who isn’t going through some kind of a suffering or or has or or will if you don’t mind so I really want to underscore how much has happened and this isn’t an exhaustive list but this is in a book in front of me which I’ve been I’ve been reading since you gave it to me there will be no intermission but just to put in perspective what has transpired the last few years asked me to read my way would you mind reading this portion just because we’re gonna we’re gonna dig into yeah so this book is kind of written to to be a performance it says ladies and gentlemen please take your seats this performance will last seven years and actually this piece gets read as a recording before my show before I I’m seated at the piano when I tour this stage show and it’s read by Neil Wow and it’s you know it’s also sort of my way of bringing him with me on that on the tour for those who don’t know Neil’s my husband Neil Gaiman one of the most hypnotic voices you shall ever hear he’s got good radio voice he does have a good radio voice this performance will last approximately seven years you will experience two abortions one out of your control another totally year choice the death of your best friend after a four year dance with cancer you will hold him in your arms as he takes his last breath two months before your first child is born the unexpected death of another beloved friend you will stumble across him sitting there on his favorite chair in the living room you will hold his cold dead hand in your own one X committing suicide with a handgun one childbirth a 24-hour labor in the woods with no drugs parented during which your baby will fall from a shelf a few beds and other high places one miscarriage alone in a hotel room on a very cold Christmas night strobe light smoke and other special effects may be used there is adult content and graphic language there will be no intermission so that’s a lot just some light reading for you on a Sunday uh which of those and it may not be clear was most difficult for you if that’s even a decent question I don’t know if any stick out Oh Anthony’s death for sure Anthony the same mentor who gave you the book we discussed yes yeah Anthony [Music] Anthony and I had a really unique blessed relationship he came into my life when I was nine I lived in a leafy green suburb you know with my very you know pretty normal household my sister my older two step siblings would come over sometimes they didn’t live with us my stepdad and my mom and Anthony moved in when I was nine and he was probably 35 he was a grown-up and he and his new wife Laura was his second wife didn’t have children and opted not to have children and Anthony and I kind of adopted one another and he became to me you know first nice grown-up neighbor friend then mentor then you know important confidant best friend by the time I was in my 20s and he you know he opened a bunch of doors that would have been otherwise completely unand because you know in Lexington Massachusetts I just wasn’t stumbling upon this kind of stuff my teachers weren’t really showing neither way my parents weren’t really showing me certain ways and I cannot imagine what my life would have looked like if this guy hadn’t moved into that house and when he our relationship was so fundamental to me that if I ever needed to make myself cry for a project for theater whatever all I would have to do is cast my mind into the possibility that he might die and I would be brought to weeping and then right around the time of my right before my Kickstarter so around 2011 he started having all sorts of strange health problems one bizarre symptom after another until finally he he was told that he had a very rare form of leukemia and had six months to live and then then it was a shit show because it was second opinions third opinions no you’re going to be fine no you’re gonna die in six months no yes this that the other thing ultimately he he died about four years later it was a very rough ride to the to the end he was on steroids heavy steroids and and you probably speak steroid he was on a hundred milligrams of prednisone a day which is crazy making you know I I feel like I lost my friend not even to death but to stare it’s because his attitude towards life and towards me and towards everything became so vicious and that was almost harder to see than death and I changed my life Neil and I were completely uprooted we had sort of had a plan our relationship was still quite new we uprooted ourselves we moved to Boston and I nursed my friend I took him to chemo I watched him die and in the midst of all that I had an abortion and I got pregnant and I you know I was seven months pregnant when I had to let go of Anthony they were you know I was this close and you know nowadays if I want to make myself cry you know I can’t think about Anthony dying anymore he’s gone that could that ship has sailed but I can really get myself going thinking how close I got to being able to introduce Anthony to my son to ash they never got to me and Anthony would have been so incredibly proud to see me incarnated as a mother and but I also you know he was my teacher almost feels like the last huge teaching that he gave to me was his death and sitting with it and absorbing it and being okay with it and letting him go and not attaching grieving weeping but not not regretting how did you feel the day after that I I let myself get hit with the full weight of morning I woke up it was so interesting no one’s ever asked me that question actually it’s such a good question Neil and I had raced home to be there at his deathbed because things got very bad very fast and we flew home from London we were there we were working on something or other right I mean number one and we we raced home and then we sort of sat you know we sat deathbed for about two or three days with Anthony’s wife Laura and a few other really really close friends and he died at night and it was right around the time of the the June equinox I think it was the day before the longest day of the year and he went at night and I mean I I had never really sat and just watched someone die because it’s a process it’s a physical physiological process I had never watched someone die and there was someone else in the room our friend Nicholas who had watched his wife died he had lost her a few years before and he had sat by her deathbed and he had the knowledge he knew that certain things happened in a certain order when someone is just slowly checking out what happens with your eyes what happens with your breath I was like wow like once again like no one ever told me any of this Nicholas knows because he just went through it but all of this hidden knowledge that I’m sure people who work in hospice must have down pat because they’re taught and he went at night Neil and I went to bed together we were all exhausted because we had basically been up for a few days waiting for this moment to happen and I also felt a really strange kind of peace and I woke up without an alarm the next day at dawn and Anthony’s body was still there and I when I was I slept at my parents house you know across the driveway it’s just like childhood in Reverse and I walked snuck into Anthony and Laura’s house Anthony was just laid out in his hospice bed and I and I sat there i looked at his dead body and i thought why are why are we told to be so afraid of this I just remember feeling like oh wow like I’ve just there’s no fear there’s this whole like narrative about like death and dead bodies and it’s all so creepy and gross and scary and I just felt an incredible kind of piece and I sat down and I started to meditate and then our friend Nicholas the one who had buried his wife he had also woken up it was bizarre it was like 6:00 in the morning you know 5:30 6:00 in the morning and I never wake up early and he came in and he didn’t say anything to me and he picked up a guitar and he started playing and and I just spent the rest of the day with my phone off as much as off as I could make it and I was like I know enough about fucking life at this point I know that my only job right now is to feel feel this grief as deeply as I can this is not something I want to defer or repress I spent the whole day crying I fucking you know I went to downtown Lexington I went into Pete’s coffee crying I went up to get a coffee crying the guy behind the counter actually knew Anthony he started crying everyone cried all day but it didn’t you know it felt really natural it felt really normal and you know not to skip too far ahead but it actually isn’t until now talking to you that I realized that that experience resonated right along with how I felt when I had a miscarriage it was the same sort of experience and also that same feeling of being kind of feeling like I’ve been kind of gypped by culture that you know no one told me that these things were so natural and that we come equipped to deal with them and that there’s nothing scary about it and you don’t need anyone to protect you from it that actually taking it in is a lot better for you the end I’m just listening it I can’t thank you for sharing that you asked well not everybody not everybody gives the real answer and so thank you for giving the real answer would you like to say anything more about the miscarriage I mean to people who have experienced it maybe felt shame maybe never told other people yeah there’s been there’s been a fair amount of that in my family not that I’ve experienced directly but I’ve seen it just kept secret for years decades yeah I mean there’s there’s so much I could say about it and I mean I could talk about it for hours but I um I found out that I was gonna I was very happy to be pregnant I was I was coming up on three months ash was too and Neal and I were we were over the moon we were a little scared but we were really excited well why were you scared uh because we were just barely holding it together juggling kid number one because the two of us if you haven’t noticed we are like relentlessly workaholic and productive and you know figuring out how to do the dance with one child was just starting to feel workable and I was like okay all if I also believe the parents around me this is going to be a game changer like a lot of parents will tell you having a second child isn’t like multiplying you know it isn’t one plus one and then you’ve got two and it’s just twice as much work it’s like ten times as much work you have to change the whole ecosystem if you want to support two children and I and I buy it and I’ve seen it firsthand and I think that’s true and Neal was in London and I went for I went for a what do you call it ultrasound and there had been a little bit of maybe things aren’t totally okay because the baby’s heartbeat had been a little slow so it was already a bit on edge and it’s actually it’s worth adding a part of this story that I’m not sure I’ve told I remember walking from the ultrasound with the Midwife down the hall of this clinic and I was like I’m just so fundamentally optimistic and I just I barrel forth in life with this attitude that everything is going to be absolutely fine and to go my way and I just had that feeling I just felt this like gut instinct instinctive certainty that things were good and so we’re walking down the hall of this clinic and the Midwife looked at me and she said what why are you smiling and she didn’t say it in a mean way she was really curious like as if I had just thought of some funny joke that I was going to tell her and I looked at her and I said I’m just waiting for my good news which I know is coming and five minutes later she told me I’m I’m really sorry but the baby has no heartbeat and I have to say it one of the things that occurred to me in that moment wasn’t just oh my god I’m not gonna have a child and I’m having a miscarriage and I remember thinking in that moment oh my god am I going to become the kind of person now who does not move through the world with optimistic certainty like is this gonna be my other game-changer where I where I just move with a different kind of certainty or or or something you know is this gonna make me bitter I remember thinking that in that moment and Neil was off in London at Terry Pratchett’s funeral his friend who had just died and I called him and this was a few days before Christmas and you know the the midwife you know gave me a bunch of information and she said you’re gonna start you know this is sort of what the process is going to be like you’re going to start bleeding as soon as you start bleeding here the numbers to call it’s Christmas things are a little weird you might need to do this you might need to go to a hospital you know if you haven’t started bleeding and you know within six days we’re going to need to do a DNC which is basically where they just go in and take everything out and I’m being told this you know ten minutes after getting this news and I my head is just like swimming in grief and confusion and all of the plans I had made in my life literally collapsing in one moment and Christmas happened and I I had a really you know I had a really rough Christmas morning it was me and Neil and his kids and I was they all knew what was happening and it was you know it was kind of hard as you could imagine to deal with like the joy of Christmas and let’s all do this when you literally know that this is happening and about to happen and I had I had bought myself two nights at Kripalu which is like a yoga hotel in western Massachusetts as a gift to myself Christmas night and the day after and I was going to go there it’s like an hour and a half drive from our house I was going to go there be alone do some yoga sit in a sauna or you know and have sit in a you know in a in a whirlpool or whatever probably wasn’t gonna sit in a whirlpool because I was pregnant I was just gonna do some self-care and I had scheduled to pregnancy massages and I just really wanted to get away from everyone because I was overwhelmed by feeling like I had to host all these people and be cheerful and be hosty so I told Neil I’m splitting I’m still gonna go I’ll be back in a day so Christmas Day I drove over to Kripalu I checked in I went to my seven o’clock pregnancy massage I hadn’t called to say hey by the way I just and this woman met me in the lobby and she was so beautiful and she came up to me and she said I’m so excited to massage you and your little one and I was like ah let’s not talk about it right here but when we get to your room I have a conversation I need to have with you and we got into her treatment room and I said listen I probably should have called ahead um I’m going through a miscarriage right now and she looked at me and she said this may sound weird but I’m really relieved because I just had a miscarriage and I was not looking forward to this appointment and she laid me on her table and she cancelled whatever she had next and I said just just take care of me and she she found every labor inducing spot on my body she just she just treated me uh you know like her sister we wept together she gave me this enormous hug she wished me well I went back to my room I fell immediately asleep in about an hour too later I woke up in labor having a mess and I was like oh right all of those things the Midwife told me like do I I’m on a mountain in western Massachusetts it’s Christmas night am I really gonna call Hospital right now or can I do this myself and I had been through a natural childbirth two years before I I know what it means to give birth to a child whether you know alive or dead and I didn’t know exactly what to expect because no and it really told me but I also I imagined what it would be like to pick up the phone and call an ambulance or I you know I was like I guess I could get in my car but I’m not in good shape I’m in labor and I’m bleeding and I just projected forward what that would look like and what it would feel like I was like I would get in an ambulance I would be treated a certain way I would be surrounded by all these strangers I would be taken to a hospital I would be strapped into things like or I could just stay here in this room and deal with whatever is about to come at me and probably face some very dark images but I actually know that I’m equipped to do this and I know that women have been equipped to do this for tens of thousands of years this is not news and you know and nothing bad is happening to me I’m not in danger so I walked the halls of that yoga hotel all night ran a bath had a miscarriage with blood everywhere stared death in the face went to bed and woke up actually feeling like the most powerful version of myself I think I have ever felt and it’s so weird saying this to people and it’s so weird explaining it because miscarriage is incredibly dark and I don’t I don’t want to say that my miscarriage was fantastic but it was also it really was one of the most powerful experiences of my life because I because I really centered myself and it did something very brave and and again like felt that sense of like loss for everybody else like we’re you know in health class as women you know you sit there in seventh grade and you’re told that you’re equipped to have a baby and that you should use a condom and that’s pretty much it but there’s so much more and there’s so much wisdom about the human body what we’re capable of containing what we’re capable of containing emotionally all the other things that happen and no one tells us no one teaches us which is when you think about it and given what we what we all go through it’s absurd the knowledge is there it just doesn’t get passed along have you found anything in particular after that experience to be to be helpful in any way talking with other women I mean sharing sharing this story all you need to do is is mention to almost any woman anything about reproductive drama abortion miscarriage stillbirth s– you know problems with pregnancy and most women have a story and most women don’t talk about it openly but the minute you invite them they will tell you and I mean I know that I’m talking about this stuff openly it’s like the floodgates have opened I had a miscarriage in a gas station bathroom I had a miscarriage in my car with my kids in the backseat and I had to deal with all of it same time I’ve had 10 miscarriages and you know I mean it’s just rampant it’s everywhere but we’re really scolded by society to keep this stuff under wraps because it’s not part of the cultural conversation and I mean it is it’s part of culture it’s happening every day as we speak in these buildings and sharing anything sharing any kind of grief trauma loss sharing any kind of experience is you know that’s how I heal I share I mean and I do it through art I do it through conversation I do it in cafes and pubs I do it over dinner parties like I will you know I’ll talk to anyone about anything and I find it really gratifying I find it constantly healing so I’m listening to you is this exactly what your podcast interview with Neal was like asking hi highly complementary and not overlapping but this this has become more and more in a way what this podcast is about in the sense that I want to talk about the things that people are dealing with whether or not they choose to deal with them does that make sense yeah you don’t get to choose yeah like you’re going to have to metabolize it somehow and you can do it in a proactive hopefully healthy constructive way that leaves everyone better off or you can stuff it down you can repress and deny and the you will deal with it nonetheless well and it will it will come out in a way less pleasant yes ways to metastasize and rupture in ways that are very unpredictable Anthony Anthony had a great saying I don’t know if it was an Anthony original or he picked it up from someone else but he said if you don’t deal with your demons they go into the cellar of your soul and lift weights that’s a good one yeah that is a really good one that is a great that is a great one and so this this actually brings up a question hearing you speak so candidly about all these things and you just said I’ll talk to anyone about anything there’s one named Tara brach who I haven’t spoken with in years but she wrote a book called radical acceptance which I found very powerful which was referred to me by a female neuroscientist who is even more skeptical than the Adam I mentioned earlier they’re they happen to be friends also and so it does based on the book description of a fair amount of whoo but nonetheless she found it very powerful and I can’t remember if it was in that book or in separate conversation with her when she mentioned to me and I think this is probably apocryphal but that there was a wise sage who at one point said there’s really only one question that matters and that is what are you unwilling to feel so my question for you then is historically maybe you’ve figured it out maybe even still today has there been a particular emotion or anything that you’ve been unwilling to feel oh I used to be very afraid to be alone and I’m not I’m not anymore but I I think if there’s an answer to that question it’s somewhere in there you know I think you know we always hide in plain sight right you’re not doing this podcast for no fucking reason and I don’t do the work that I do for no reason and Neil didn’t pick science fiction fantasy and Sandman for no reason um and I think you know my the course of my career and my work to find deep passionate you know unbridled connection with others belies my my fear of being alone and you know I and and one and in the department next door and and I know that it’s true because even saying it makes me uncomfortable I have a very deep-seated fear of of feeling unbeliev and I think you know the the spots where I’m still uncomfortable to sit and the stuff that I’m still uncomfortable feeling lies in there I actually I can tell you one of the things I’m grappling right now that probably answers your question there’s a journalist out there who writes for a paper that I regard very highly and read and she hates me she just hates me hates everything I stand for has done nothing but criticized me and just state openly that she thinks I’m a terrible awful narcissistic person you have these people Hampshire oh I’ve I have more than I had for myself I I have these two but this this woman is authenticated because she’s you know she’s not just a she’s not just a shitty youtube comment she’s a journalist at a really respected outlet and she’s she’s cock-blocked my record it won’t ever be written about a reviewed in this paper and I’ve obsessed with her I can’t stop thinking about how I want to win her over and change her mind and force her to love me and connect with me and see the light and and it’s almost bordering on immense obsession you know I found I found this out whatever eight nine days ago and it’s plagued my thoughts every day even as the record gets critically Hale the even if it is you know like every other review is great everyone is crying every tear is shed every show is sold out like none of it matters because I have been unable to capture this one person’s love and acceptance and attention and my like the fact that that’s my Achilles heel that like that’s the the bear trap that my leg is in right now speaks a lot about what I am unwilling to to feel like I’m unwilling to feel unloved by everyone but I’m also way better at it than I used to be you know I can at least sit here and pontificate about that examine it and go oh yeah that’s that thing that you do that’s cute enjoy that you know wait wait a couple of weeks it’ll go you mentioned or I should say used a phrase just a few minutes ago and I can’t remember the exact wording you used but something about being unbeliev with any of these whether it’s the fear of being alone the fear of not being believed is this do you have any memory do you have an earliest memory of feeling that way yeah it’s my first memory I even write about it at the beginning of the art of asking um and it actually it was only thanks to a rich a yoga retreat that I was on in my lovely in my early thirties we did an exercise a really beautiful exercise as a group you know there’s maybe whatever fifty people at this retreat it was actually it was a retreat specifically for yoga teacher training but I was just there as a as a civilian and the the question we had gotten into a very quiet place and everyone was you know feeling very connected with themselves and I think this was an exercise that we did at night and the question was when was the first time in your life that you felt that things were not okay hmm that was the way it was phrased and I was like I remember it was the first thing I remember which was I was probably around Ash’s age really around 3 years old and I’m we lived in this we lived in this teeny little house and there was there’s a long wooden staircase that connected the second to the first floor and I I was at the top of it and slipped at the top and tumbled down the entire staircase like a cartoon like boom boom boom boom and also like a cartoon was actually fine at the bottom but completely freaked out like I had just literally fallen down a set of stairs but you know that was 3 and bouncy and chubby and whatever I I you know there was no blood there were no broken bones but I was shocked I had the wind knocked out of me I was disoriented I was terrified and I ran straight to the kitchen and I don’t remember exactly who is there but you know probably you know my family my mom my stepdad my older brother and sisters whoever was there it was like them the big people and I told them what what had happened and whatever way a three-year-old does that and they didn’t believe me and and I remember the degree of pain that I felt not being believed was was pretty seismic compared to the pain of falling down the stairs it was that was shattering like all of a sudden things are not okay like I just my world was blown apart and I remember being in this yoga retreat and thinking like I think I literally laughed out loud like belly laughed when I started thinking about that incident and then the fucking line of work I chose which is to get up in front of thousands of people and scream about my pain to paying customers but you know it it’s not not connected do you do I would say it’s completely right do you feel like you have overcome or addressed that and if not do you not want to address it deliberately and the reason I ask is that I’ve met in particular comedians or as stand-up comics but also quite a few artists and different disciplines who are afraid that if they take their pain away they will not be able to create yes that is such a tyrannical and destructive myth I think Neal believes that and I spend a lot of time trying to convince him that it doesn’t work that way I think a lot of artists and writers and stand-ups and whatever they think that you know if you pull on the thread of self-knowledge and healing than the entire artistic architecture of their life will just fall and disappear so you you actually you have to take a bizarre faith-based leap and just believe that that’s not true but you know as as mammals you know in our in our habits and and in our like on our in our small-minded way if we’ve done something and it’s worked we’re just gonna continue to repeat that we’re not going to try some new combination and try to you know fuck with the chemistry and and this is a this is a real problem and our culture because of the this profligacy Nord it sounds blue I think that’s a word run against a proliferation because of the proliferation of this myth artists suffer and they should not we should be taking care of our artists the way we take care of any other valuable cultural tool artists are really fuckin necessary for us to make it through this veil of Tears and if we don’t take care of them and the art that they make and the music that they make we all collectively suffer and I I mean I believed in that myth for a really long time I was a super self destructive self-styled artist bohemian weirdo and my teens 20s and well into my 30s and you know I still have my moments but I really bought it I was like I need to have a dangerous destructive life of sex drugs and rock and roll’s so that I can be awesome and have great things to write about and my pain is valuable and I feel like if you’re an artist maybe if that’s the door you come in through great that’s step yes your pain is valuable good like starting kit step 2 your pain is valuable to others that’s like master level and you know the the interesting thing about being not believed and going into this line of work is I you know I I didn’t go in thinking that music was was a service industry I went in thinking it was what I needed I needed to express myself and be believed by these people will you believe me great you’ll buy the ticket you’ll buy the CD you you will understand this pain great that’s like this is a job I want to do but it did not take long for you know the next curtain to open and for me to see the that the people in the audience and the people buying the CDs they weren’t just validating my pain and they weren’t there to validate my pain and to believe me they were having their own experiences I hadn’t really totally clocked that I mean I of course I subconsciously knew because I had listened to music all my life I knew that other musicians had done it for me but I think I was I was too you know I I think I was too what’s the word I’m looking for not scared but like I didn’t ever believe that I would be that person for someone else to manage intimidated yeah I just felt too I felt too small you know I know that the Cure did this for me the legendary pink dots did this for me Leonard Cohen did this for me I’m not sure I’ll ever be doing that for anyone but I know that I want to be like them I know that I want to write music about my pain but then like it’s not kind of like a magic trick then it worked then people were crying at my shows then women were coming up to me and telling me about their pain their abusive relationships their rapes their their struggles and and men of all ages sizes and genders and I thought Oh like I guess this is the way it works and I stumbled into this job now I guess I do it and I and I learn how to get better at it and one of the things about this record is that it actually it it sort of feels like my final exam in songwriting it’s the it’s the most raw unedited you know offering from a place of grief but also like empowerment and enlightenment that I could offer up to anyone out there who would need it it’s you know in a way it’s like it’s the most medicinal record I’ve ever made and I know because I needed it if and if I needed this medicine it’s probably going to work on other people you here you try it is this gonna work on you and that’s been what it is I want to underscore a few things I think I heard you say and because because they strike me as very very important and I’ll use I’ll use my words because I’m not gonna I don’t have the memory or a few ways that verbatim but the the first is that you can use your pain without always allowing your pain to use you in the sense that we could tie it into the experience you had on the beach before here shoplifting and even during and after which is for using a metaphor from meditation if your pain is say if experiencing your pain and being driven by your pain and being reactive to your pain is being inside the washing mm-hmm you can actually do a better job of seeing what is inside by zooming out 12 inches and being outside of the washing machine yeah and that allows you to use the content of your suffering to use the content of your pain while having a better understanding of it and being able to shape it like a sculptor so that you can better wield it yeah and impart it to other people you befriend it almost one of the one of the most powerful lessons I have had in the pain Department and the understanding what we’re calling pain was going through a natural childbirth which when people ask me to describe it the best thing I can come up with and it is not necessarily a analogy that works for all people but it’s like an acid trip like you you have to let go of the wheel or you will really suffer and what gets in the way a lot I think when when women go in to have babies is that they are told that this will be extremely painful but there’s a difference between the kind of pain that is childbirth and the kind of pain that is someone just sliced your arm open with a razor blade one is danger you are in danger and your pain is sending you a very very specific loud message that you are in danger and you need to take action and the other kind of pain is really more describable as a kind of a discomfort but it’s not danger and the more I think about our bodies and the messages they send us because our body any kind of pain or discomfort is always a message from somewhere as soon as I really you know as soon as I was in labor when I was having Ash and I what and my labor was 24 hours as soon as I went into labor I really clocked and took on board the idea that this wasn’t dangerous pain and because I was sort of able to flick a switch in there and have a conversation with myself and my own body in which I said self you’re not in danger this is just uncomfortable it didn’t really feel like pain it felt like discomfort and and that made me much more able to just sit with it and and and deal with it but so many women when they go into the experience of having childbirth are just frightened to death by people by doctors by narrative by whatever like bullshit TV dramas they’ve seen on your average soap opera where there’s a woman shrieking in agony being wheeled on a gurney with six people around her with a baby inside of her that like you are going to be in pain and pain is bad and you need to stop this pain which is why most women will just race to take drugs and get an epidural which winds up being very very you know negative and with a knock-on effect for both baby and Mama and what a classic metaphor for our entire fucking society if you’re feeling pain just stop the pain don’t don’t think about why you might be in pain don’t think about where it might be coming from and why you might need to feel it or feel this discomfort just get just fucking get rid of it and and we had we have a handy product for you that we’re willing to sell you at great expense to yourself to just make that pain go but as you said earlier you know that’s never a sustainable option ever the the polar opposite also isn’t sustainable which we’ve been talking about as it relates to a lot of artists but not just artists that’s the fetishizing of pain and using pain as the sexy pan or creative pain which exists but you don’t want to be a a vessel or a hammer looking for a nail yeah everywhere because you’re gonna end up hammering a lot of screws and that doesn’t make a whole lot of fucking sense and I would say also that as someone who’s who has or had for decades fetishize pain and I took great pride in having a very very high pain tolerance that it’s important I think if you identify strongly with pain if that is a primary driver in your life if it’s something you romanticize or fetishize or view as your friend which it sometimes is when it’s giving you a message ask yourself am I putting pain in pole position because I’m unwilling or unable to feel other things so I just want to feel something yeah well because pain can become a kind of a music you know that drowns out the the other conversations that you should maybe be listening to you know because pain can be annihilating and Annihilation can feel great if you’re annihilating other things yeah you know yeah well there are different ways to numb yourself one is by taking away the pain using different agents and the other is to turn the to use pain so frequently or to make the volume so loud that it drowns out other things and for those people who feel like they might in some way I identify with what I’m saying the the book I mentioned earlier radical acceptance is very very very helpful for this yeah I had a I had a thought flashed through my head that day that I woke up from the miscarriage and it was it was also -5 degrees on the mountaintop that night and that day it was the it was that sort of like you don’t even go outside kind of cold and I remember I remember walking outside and thinking my my relationship to pain and discomfort has has been permanently altered something has been rewired and I also found myself thinking I found myself thinking about women and men and what we come equipped to endure and what we do endure and I found myself thinking men you know there’s in the in the male narrative especially recently and when I say recently I mean like the but over the past few thousand years of patriarchy there is this real there’s this real machismo and this male narrative around violence and war and strength and the ability to withstand pain for a noble cause and bloody battle after a bloody battle and I thought about all of that it was sort of like I had this skin of this flash like the montage of male violence through recent history all the wars all the battles all the bloodshed all of the comrades and while holding that image in my mind I thought about being up in the hotel room alone like as a woman surrounded by blood and holding this dead baby and thinking no man has ever done that I’ve gone through that particular battle and that is one deep fucking battle to to grow it to grow life and then hold it in your hands and say goodbye and I thought one of the reasons that we are not doing so hot as a culture is this thing that women are fundamentally equipped to do and are really quite good at when we are given the space to do it and create it and share it and the thing that men are you know come just equipped with DNA wise and I don’t want to get into gender politics because things will get very dangerous but we’re we’re so bad at taking care of each other in these departments at supporting at supporting each other and the strength that women have had for thousands of years to deal with the dark side of reproduction and to deal with the the real like visceral bloody life-and-death of periods and stillbirths and abortions and dead babies you know it’s it’s not nothing it is it is badass it it requires an incredible fortitude and strength of body and mind to to go through experiences like that and women go through it but they don’t really get a ton of credit and and they’re also you know they’re disempowered at every turn by men taking charge of the narrative and infantilizing women patronizing them you know and taking charge of things that women could very well do foreign by themselves foreign with each other as they have for millennia until doctors marched in the room and said step aside ladies we we have a better plan and it’s going to cost you a lot of money PS fucking capitalism well I think it’s I think it’s important to and feel free to disagree but to to recognize that there are exceptions in the sense that it’s not all men thinking or are the bad guys and there are the the bad girls and the men and women there’s no monopoly on bad behavior I’ve seen some horrifying behavior on both sides men certainly more than then have their fair share but in part if I’m looking at it from my perspective this is stuff I wanted you to talk about right and I think that speaking from the vantage point of someone whose own family would not talk about these things what what do you mean for instance miscarriage right there’s these are experiences that I think I’ll many people men included are very open to hearing but they just it’s it’s not part of the cultural conversation and there is a lot of social pressure one way or another there’s a lot of censoring and there’s a lot of self censoring also yeah absolutely and it’s one one thing that’s become it’s so clear to me in the last handful of years especially since I’ve written publicly about family and personal struggles with major depressive episodes and near suicide in college I mean the most important thing I’ve ever written is some practical thoughts on suicide which is a blog most about that and much like your experience putting out this record in this book I suspect and even before that but I think especially with this you realize that everyone you bump into every person you see you know we’re up here on a high floor and high rise looking down at these you know thousands of ants and every single one of those people is fighting a battle we know nothing about yes and the scale and depth of suffering the experience is male and female and everything in between that people have endured or suffered or had inflicted upon them is enough to boggle the mind I mean it’s it’s it’s and it’s it’s so valuable to have you sharing your experiences and to have other people in a few weeks I’ll be having someone from the Special Forces come on to talk about a lot of what is [Music] suppressed or not openly discussed even in those worlds when it comes to PTSD and a lot of the a lot of people eat the sleep back the sleep book they yes this is a longer conversation actually there’s there’s a Kirk parsley separately for people who are interested in sleep is former Special Forces who focuses on split unsleep specifically for those people who want to google that later but the the without rambling too long this was the the point I’m trying to make is that the way we all become more comfortable talking about pain and simultaneously recognizing the courage and the capabilities and the incredible strength that people can bring to bear on the situation certainly including women is by talking about them yeah and it it sort of gets back to what I keep seeing them the major theme nowadays with everything politically with feminism here there with art which is that it feels like a paradox especially given the cultural kool-aid that we’ve all been raised with but vulnerability is incredible power and we’re we’re hammered so hard with the opposite message that it can be very hard to really believe that no until you do it and do it again and do it again and practice doing it and realize that actually the knock-on effect and the well is the knock-on effect actually I don’t know what that is you mentioned it earlier oh well by the knock-on effect I just mean the the effect period when you actually take the plunge and make yourself vulnerable whether that means discussing your suicidal thoughts or being open with your community about your abortion or admitting to a paralyzing fear or whatever your bag is the the effect of that you know we’re taught that that’s such a terrifying thing to do and we’ve you know we fear whatever is waiting on the other side of that ridicule or rejection or you know just being dismissed or whatever but my personal experience has taught me that there is there’s just an immense amount of bounty on the other side of that every single time and I’ve now been practicing it for long enough that I don’t have to believe it anymore I just know and at least in my experience one thing I realized not too many years ago is that when you keep when you put armor on and you keep it on long enough it’s true that can keep a lot of scary things outside but it also can keep a lot of scary things inside and it’s a heavy it’s a terror it’s a barrier how has and this is something that I know you’re at least based on our conversations quite passionate about but how has moving to a fan supported model changed you or your art or both it’s changed both and it’s and it’s impossible to discuss the life without the art and the art without the life at this point I was actually pretty blindsided at how profound the effect on my life on my day-to-day life on my artistic life switching to a patreon model was I thought that it was going to be like a good convenient you know nice sustainable way of giving my fans and avenue to to pay me you know once and then kind of not be bothered because i would have their credit card and i could charge them at will instead of bugging them every 18 months with a crowdfunding scheme and i knew that i would appreciate the predictability of having a certain amount of money every month and that they would appreciate not being assaulted with an NPR style fundraiser that was going but it was going to irritate the hell out of them once a year and I also knew that like my fans are my fans it’s not like I’m gonna find a new batch of 25,000 people the next time I do a Kickstarter it’s those people it’s one community so going back and going back to the well every year to do another Kickstarter another record just seemed like it was going to be exhausting on both sides so when patreon came along and for those for people who don’t know what patreon is it’s basically a kind of a sustained subscription to an artist so I have 15,000 people right now backing me at about $3 a month just to work to do what I need to do to Podcast to release demos to write to film and I and I offer back a lot you know there’s there’s basically a channel of my work and I you know and I blog and there are little perks here and there but mostly it’s it’s a non-profit you know not a non-profit model it’s an NPR model you’re just paying for me to broadcast and I will send you my broadcasts personally you know with it with a bow tied on them if you’re my patron and everyone else in the world basically just gets to tune in but I did not get I did not understand how disorienting lis liberating it would feel to all of a sudden not have to have the second thought every time I had an artistic thought of how am I going to sell this how am I going to market this you know this idea is pretty good this idea is genius this song is great this album is great and every artist grapples with this tightrope between art and money constantly it’s and it’s such a bizarre combination of things to think about you know here you are writing a song burying your soul that’s thought number one an activity number one and then activity number two is okay how are you how is this thing going to pay your rent how are you gonna get this thing you know from your soul out into the marketplace into the hands of someone who will authenticate you sell it and then give you a paycheck and I actually hadn’t realized that you know being part of the major label system which I was and then being an independent artist which I was but still out there doing like the daily grind and the daily hustle to make sure that there was money coming in so that I could pay my staff and make my work and pay my recording studio bills I just did not realize how much of the pie chart in my brain was the hustle versus the art and even though I still do the hustle and I still need to run my patreon as soon as thousands of people said Amanda Amanda Amanda just relax we’ve got your back we’re gonna pay you so take your time say what you need to say sing what you need to sing and we’re in we’ve already bought the song now tell us what you have to say it was almost like it was almost like being punched drunk what when did that become real yeah because rent you there’s there’s there’s a shift at some point where you’re like maybe I’ll try this maybe this will be a thing yeah and that where where where where did the where did it hit the boiling point where you’re like oh wow well I mean it’s the boiling points a good metaphor because like everything else in my career it wasn’t like one day I woke up and said oh my god crowdfunding has liberated my artistic voice it’s been a I’ve been in it I’ve been in a long-term relationship with my community of listeners readers audience for 20 years and I have experimented with every dial in that relationship and I went through you know crowdfunding independently off my website I went through using Kickstarter as a model now I’m using patreon and the platforms and the tools keep changing but the fundamental is that I I think that when we can divorce art from money and when artists can just let go of that lever and by divorce you mean not have to think not have to think about it so much the there’s a there’s there’s a great blog out there by a woman named Wendy ice who crowdfunded a book of her husband’s he was a fantastic illustrator and he he did did a book of illustrations for Alice in Wonderland like a new illustrated version of it that publishers wouldn’t take that people wanted it Wendy ice ice ee yeah I see and I forget the name of her husband it’s escaping me we can we’ll put it in show tunes and I’ll summarize her blog because it’s a little bit of a tangent but it’s really important and enough people convinced her to go to Kickstarter into a crowd fund for this book and she was very scared because they were used to working in the world of publishing where everything was authenticated and there was a system and there was an order of things but they just weren’t the book wasn’t getting picked up so they did they went to their community and they did this crowd fund and they were they were overwhelmed and overjoyed with the amount of support that they got and then her husband got cancer shortly after that happened and she was very afraid to go to her Kickstarter backers and say things are gonna be held up something very bad has happened and then her husband died and she said she had never felt more supported emotionally by a community that then she felt from these Kickstarter backers who were purportedly there to get a book but we’re actually really there to support the artistic entity behind the book they they wound up supporting her family they wound up supporting her they supported her journey and she talks so succinctly in a way that I have never managed to do about what it feels like to be held by a community like this and how it actually feels safer sometimes then the community of your own friends and the community of your own family because it is an unconditional love that asks nothing in exchange and I feel that way so often about my patrons they’re just there for me they ask very little in return but they’re very happy for what I have to give them and we do not have any entanglements there’s not a whole lot of passive-aggressive behavior there just is this kind of unconditional acceptance and love for what I do and what I have to offer and it’s such a beautiful delicious uncomplicated relationship and if I want a complicated relationship I’ve got my marriage I’ve got my parents I’ve got my family I can go there anytime that channel is open but when it comes to art which is so fragile and doesn’t sometimes this just needs an unconditional support system oh my god like having 15,000 people who are there with a giant net to catch me in my spectacular failings as an artist or my successes or whatever they’re going to be feels like the it feels like the apex of artistic freedom there was a happy for you I’m doing it and who knows you know it might change platforms change companies get eaten by Facebook you just never know but the the point is actually not the technology not the platforms not the company is not patreon not IndieGoGo not Facebook it’s what human beings are capable of doing for and with each other the platform’s whatever they’ll change they’ll evolve they’ll be more or less helpful in our endeavors but what I am exhilarated by right now and really inspired by right now is that Kickstarter seems to have kicked down the door for people understanding that this kind of support and patronage was available and started to chip away at the stigma and now patreon is kind of picking up where kick start at least for me kicking up where Kickstarter left off and you know now thousands hundreds of thousands of people are out there thinking that it’s totally ok to just support an artist because you want to hear what they fucking have to say not because you want an object or a piece of plastic to put in your discman but because you want to hear what Tim Ferriss has to say about the world and you want the message out there and you want to see what music Amanda Palmer is gonna make and it’s worth it to you for $3 a month to just have it exist that’s amazing that feels like artistic evolutionary progress happening very fast right now in the world I’m excited for you and happy for you I think this is I think this is also if we’re just looking at one example of the output that is enabled by that type of support I think I think this is really important I don’t say that I don’t sit lightly like a sweaty my palms are just having this emotional conversation it’s wild my the sweat is all over the death back it’s well is important I gave this talk at South by Southwest a couple of days ago talking about her never ever ever in a billion years would have had the fortitude to make a record like this if I had known that somewhere in there I would have had to walk it up to Steve and marketing and say this is what I’ve got because I know Steve for marketing and I know what the response would have been which is you’ve got to be fucking kidding us and this is not going to play well at radio and what do you mean your first track is 11 minutes long back to the drawing board I see and instead I just got to you know sail over under and around all of those hurdles and just say this is my this is my offering where can people find your offering where can they learn more about all of this uh well this is the vinyl most people don’t have vinyl but I mean the the album is available on vinyl and on CD and pretty much any anywhere on the internet where you get music and one of the things that my patronage and the Palmer for those people who are not watching but listening yeah there will be no intermission there’s boots on the cover there’s boobs and full frontal nudity sorry sorry grandma one of the things that the patreon makes possible is my ability to keep my music very cheap for the public for people who don’t have a huge budget to spend on music so this album which is clocks in at about 80 minutes is a dollar on Bandcamp and you can pay more on Bandcamp if you want it’ll come directly to me because I own my own fucking music but when you go and if you download this record for a dollar at Bandcamp keep my patrons in mind because it’s their funding that made it possible for me to put a giant expensive really well produced record on Bandcamp for $1 and feel no pain the army of Medici for the modern art is exactly yea the crap crowd Medici where where can people find you on the interwebs say hello anything that you’d like to suggest people perhaps take a look at what’s what’s your website well if I’m gonna send people to me my community is mostly hanging out on patreon right now yeah how do I find you patreon.com slash amanda palmer or you could just google amanda palmer patreon I have a big website with a lot of information on it that’s easy to find Amanda Palmer net and I’m on all the socials at Amanda Palmer I tend to respond and discuss the most on Twitter I am I am trying to wean myself from the evil bloody tit of Facebook I’m just not a fan sorry Facebook your your your scoring low marks in my book right now and you have been for a while and I’m you know I’m around I’m on Instagram I’m I’m on tumblr but chances are if you if you want to chat with me find me wave something in my direction I’ll see you on Twitter at all shout back and don’t be dicks people be nice yeah just don’t be a dick that’s our office that’s our office team logo and and mantra just don’t be a dick yeah try being nice it’s and I’m very lucky that my audience I feel really blessed with the audience of somehow managed to have form around these ideas that I bar from other people and share and blend together and put out there and they tend to be very very very supportive and and mostly constructive except for that one guy on Twitter today he was like shut up ferret go away and like you follow me if everybody loved what you did all the time I would say you’re doing something very wrong yeah that would be you know cause for greater concern yeah Amanda this is so much fun thank you for having me so lovely to see you again and is there anything else you would like to say suggest ask any closing comments before we wrap up mm I don’t think so I mean maybe it’s actually worth mentioning to your people specifically that I’m starting my own podcast mmm to have conversations mostly with artists about process and about asking and about how we do what we do but I’m also having conversations with people from every possible field I talked to David Eagleman who’s a neuroscientist I’m gonna be talking with people from Planned Parenthood I’m gonna be talking to social scientists and you know any anyone who has anything interesting to share I want to hunt them down and chat with them and I’m I’m calling it the art of asking everything and I’m I’m figuring it out right now but if you want my voice in your head if you can handle more just stay tuned to whatever channels of mine it will probably be hard to avoid when I want to step into the Palmer verse hear the noise and the news and I’m also gonna start a death metal band will help my death metal band will write the theme song for my for my happy hippie vodka Amanda thank you for making the time I think you are an awesome human being tim ferriss thank you for existing and doing this Thank You Amanda and I hope we have many more conversations we will be having more conversations in fact things coming up and to really listening you can find links to everything we talked about in the show notes as always at tim doug forward slash podcast just search Amanda’s name and it’ll all pop right up and until next time thank you for listening you